Carnism: Why Eating Animals Is a Social Justice Issue


Melanie Joy: Social Psychologist & Author / November 3, 2011 / 64 Comments


Carnism & Social Justice

I don’t eat lamb…You feel guilty. It just feels kind of like…they are very gentle. Well, cows are [gentle, too, but] we eat them. I don’t know how to describe it….It seems like everybody eats cow. It’s affordable and there are so many of them but lambs are just different….Seems like it’s okay to eat a cow but it’s not okay to eat a lamb…the difference is weird.

Interview subject: 43-year-old meat eater

I don’t [think of animals raised for meat as individuals]. I wouldn’t be able to do my job if I got that personal with them. When you say “individuals,” you mean as a unique person, as a unique thing with its own name and its own characteristics, its own little games it plays? Yeah? Yeah, I’d really rather not know that. I’m sure it has it, but I’d rather not know it.

Interview subject: 31-year-old meat cutter

Consider the above statements. A meat cutter wouldn’t be able to carry on with his work if he thought about what he was doing. A meat eater is affectionate toward one species but eats another and has no idea why. Before being asked to reflect on their behaviors, neither of these individuals thought there was anything odd about the way they relate to the animals that become their food, and after such reflection their awareness quickly “wore off.” So the meat cutter kept the unpleasant reality of his job at bay and continued to process animals, while the meat eater suppressed his mental paradox and continued to eat them.

What is perhaps most extraordinary about the sentiments above is that to most of us—including those of us who are committed to critically examining our beliefs and behaviors, and the impact of our choices on others—they are not extraordinary. All of us who are born into a dominant, meat-eating culture have inherited this paradoxical mentality: We know the animals we eat are individuals, yet we’d rather not know it. We’d feel guilty eating certain animals, yet we take pleasure consuming others. We cringe when faced with images of animals suffering, yet we dine on their bodies multiple times a day. We love dogs and eat pigs and yet we don’t know why.

Widespread ambivalent, illogical attitudes toward a group of others are almost always a hallmark of an oppressive ideology. Oppressive ideologies require rational, humane people to participate in irrational, inhumane practices and to remain unaware of such contradictions. And they frame the choices of those who refuse to participate in the ideology as “personal preferences” rather than conscientious objections.

It is essential that those of us who espouse progressive values and thus support social justice initiatives recognize the paradoxical mentality of meat. Because although this mentality is pervasive, it is not inherent in our species—it is the product of an oppressive ideology so entrenched that it is invisible, its tenets appearing to be universal truths rather than ideologically driven assumptions. This ideology shapes and is shaped by the same type of mentality that enables other oppressions, and it is therefore essential to address if we hope to create a more just social order. Eating animals is not simply a matter of personal ethics; it is the inevitable end result of a deeply entrenched, oppressive ism. Eating animals is a social justice issue.

Carnism: The Ideology of Meat

Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions us to eat certain animals. Carnism is the opposite of veganism; we tend to think it is only vegans (and vegetarians) who bring their beliefs to the dinner table. But when eating animals is not a necessity for survival, as is the case in much of the world today, it is a choice—and choices always stem from beliefs. Most of us do not, for instance, eat pigs but not dogs because we don’t have a belief system when it comes to eating animals.

Yet most of us have no idea that when we eat animals we are in fact making a choice. When we are growing up, forming our identity and values, nobody asks us whether we want to eat animals, how we feel about eating animals, whether we believe in eating animals. We are never asked to reflect upon this daily practice that has such profound ethical dimensions and personal implications. Eating animals is just a given; it’s just the way things are. Because carnism operates outside of our awareness, it robs us of our ability to make our choices freely—because without awareness, there is no free choice.

Carnism, like other oppressive, or violent, ideologies whose tenets run counter to core human values, must use a set of social and psychological defense mechanisms that disconnect us, psychologically and emotionally, from the truth of our experience. In so doing, carnism enables us to support unnecessary violence toward others without the moral discomfort we would otherwise feel. In short, because we naturally feel empathy toward animals and don’t want them to suffer, and yet we nonetheless eat animals, carnism must provide us with a set of tools to override our conscience so that we support an oppressive system that we would likely otherwise oppose.

Denial: See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil

The primary defense of carnism is denial: if we deny there is a problem in the first place, then we don’t have to do anything about it. And denial is expressed through invisibility; carnism remains invisible by remaining unnamed so that eating animals is seen as a given rather than a choice, an impartial act rather than an ideological practice. Moreover, the victims of the system are kept out of sight and thus conveniently out of public consciousness. Animal victims are, for instance, routinely and legally forcibly impregnated and castrated, and their beaks, horns, and tails are cut off—all without any pain relief. They spend their entire lives confined in windowless sheds, in crates so small they can barely move, and it is not uncommon for them to have their throats slit while conscious or to be boiled alive. The dismembered bodies of slaughtered beings are everywhere we turn, and yet we virtually never see these animals alive.

Justification: Conservatism in the Guise of Progressivism

The secondary defense of carnism is justification; when invisibility inevitably falters, we must be provided with a good reason for continuing to eat other beings. Carnism teaches us to justify eating animals by teaching us to believe that the myths of meat are the facts of meat. There is a vast mythology surrounding meat, but all myths fall in one way or another under the Three Ns of Justification: eating meat is normal, natural, and necessary. And these same myths have been used to justify violent behaviors and beliefs throughout human history, from war to slavery to all forms of bigotry against humans (e.g., misogyny, homophobia, etc.).

The Three Ns are antithetical to progressive values. Progressives by definition are those who challenge entrenched social norms, question dominant definitions of human nature and history, and seek to transform an oppressive status quo. And historically, the Ns have been used to discredit progressive movements, framing the ideologies these movements promote as abnormal, unnatural, and unnecessary. (Consider, for instance, the reaction to the suffragists: it was widely believed that if women were to vote it would defy the natural order and destroy the nation.) Yet most well intentioned progressives have unwittingly embraced the Three Ns of carnism, either by ignoring the issue of farmed animal exploitation altogether or at best by supporting the increasingly popular “humane” and “sustainable” meat movements, movements which reflect the same conservative traditionalism that has always been used to justify ideologies which exploit a disempowered group of others.

Eating Meat is Normal: Violence in Moderation

What we call normal is simply the beliefs and behaviors of the dominant culture. It is the carnistic norm. And carnism as a social norm is so entrenched that it blinds us to the fact that “humane meat” is a contradiction in terms. Most of us would, for instance, never condone killing a perfectly healthy six-month-old golden retriever who “had a good life” simply because we like the way her thighs taste, and yet carnism prevents us from seeing the immorality of doing the exact same thing to cows, pigs, chickens, and other farmed animals. Any moral difference between animal species that carnistic culture teaches us to believe in is a pure rationalization.

Eating Meat is Natural: Violence as a Tradition

What we call natural is simply the dominant culture’s interpretation of history. It reflects not human history, but carnistic history; it references not our fruit-eating ancestors but their flesh-eating descendants. And more importantly, infanticide, murder, and rape are at least as longstanding as eating animals and are therefore arguably as natural—yet we don’t invoke the longevity of these practices as a justification for them. In the words of author Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, do we really want to use the behavior of the Neanderthals as the yardstick by which to measure our current moral choices?

The argument that eating meat is natural is a key premise of the sustainability movement. Many proponents of this movement claim that the reason we buy our meat from grocery stores rather than hunt and kill animals ourselves is because modern food production methods have removed us from the (natural) process of killing so that we have become overly sensitized to harming animals. Such an argument is reminiscent of the portrayal of slavery abolitionists as “sentimental.” The “sustainable meat” argument is founded on a traditionalist worldview which frames the progressive values of empathy, compassion, and reciprocity (doing unto others) as qualities to be transcended rather than cultivated.

“But They Eat ____ in ____!”: Cultural Carnism

Carnism is a global phenomenon. In meat-eating cultures around the world, people tend to feel comfortable eating only those species they learned to classify as edible; all the rest they perceive as inedible and often as disgusting (e.g., pigs in the Middle East) or even unethical (e.g., dogs and cats in the U.S., cattle in India) to consume. And all cultures tend to see their own classification of edible animals as rational and judge the classifications of other cultures as disgusting and/or offensive. So, while the type of species consumed changes from culture to culture, people’s experience eating animals remains remarkably consistent.

Most people assume that because eating animals is universal, it is not ideological. The wide variation of species consumed across cultures—rather than being seen as evidence of carnism—often leads to the assumption that eating animals is a morally relative (and thus morally neutral) practice. Yet, just as, for instance, the marrying off of 12-year-old girls in Sudan is no reason for us to consider sexual relations with children morally neutral, the eating of dogs in Korea is no reason for us to consider eating pigs (or other animals) morally neutral. If the mere existence of analogous practices in other cultures ethically justified our own behaviors, we would have no reason to question the ethics of even the most heinous of crimes. While we of course should not condemn the traditions of other cultures as immoral, we can, as thoughtful observers, examine our own culture’s attempts to justify eating certain animals against this broader cultural backdrop.

Eating Meat is Necessary: Violence is a Given

What we call necessary is simply what is necessary to maintain the dominant culture. Today, the evidence that a diet without animal products is nutritionally sound (and likely even healthier than a carnistic diet) is overwhelming. For those of us who are economically and geographically able to choose what we eat, eating meat is necessary only to sustain the carnistic status quo.

Framing eating animals as a biological necessity de-moralizes what is a fundamentally moral issue. In other words, if we believe that eating animals is unavoidable then we also believe that it is amoral, and we are alleviated of the responsibility of reflecting on the ethics of our choices.

Institutionalized Carnism: Systemic Oppression

The reason so many progressives have not rejected the Three Ns of carnism is because carnism is structural; it is built into the very structure of society and is therefore a form of institutionalized oppression. And when an ideology is institutionalized, it is also internalized. In other words, those of us who are progressive often don’t challenge the Three Ns because we don’t see them for what they are, as we have learned to look at the world through the lens of carnism.

Cognitive Distortions: Internalized Carnism

Carnism, like other violent ideologies, uses a set of cognitive defenses that distort our perceptions of those on the receiving end of our choices. These defenses act as psychological and emotional distancing mechanisms. For instance, carnism teaches us to see certain animals as objects, so that we refer to the turkey on our Thanksgiving platter as something rather than someone. Carnism also teaches us to see animals as abstractions, as lacking in any individuality or personality and instead simply as members of an abstract group about which we’ve made generalized assumptions: a pig is a pig and all pigs are the same. And as with other victims of violent ideologies, we give them numbers rather than names. And carnism teaches us to place animals in rigid categories in our minds so that we can harbor very different feelings and carry out very different behaviors toward different species: dogs and cats are family and chickens and cows are food.

From Absurdities to Atrocities: The Mentality of Oppression

When we look at the world through the lens of carnism, we fail to see the absurdities of the system. So we see, for instance, an advertisement of a pig holding a butcher knife and gleefully dancing over the fire pit in which she is to be cooked (“asking” to be killed and consumed) and we take no notice, rather than take offense. Or we are told by the corporate conglomerates who profit from the bodies of those whose eggs and milk we consume that the animals in their well concealed factories are free from harm, and we unquestioningly accept such a claim—despite the fact that it is illegal for civilians to obtain access to these buildings or even to photograph them from a distance.

As Voltaire aptly said, if we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. Carnism is but one of the many atrocities, one of the many violent ideologies, that are an unfortunate part of the human legacy. And although the experience of each group of victims will always be somewhat unique, the ideologies themselves are structurally similar. The mentality that enables such violence is the same.

It is the mentality of domination and subjugation, of privilege and oppression. It is the mentality that causes us to turn someone into something, to reduce a life to a unit of production, to erase someone’s being. It is the might-makes-right mentality, which makes us feel entitled to wield complete control over the lives and deaths of those with less power—just because we can. And to feel justified in our actions, because they’re only…. savages, women, animals. It is the mentality of meat.

Injustice begets Injustice: Carnism as an Interlocking Ism

Many progressives appreciate Martin Luther King, Jr.’s declaration that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, because we appreciate that oppressions are interlocking, reinforcing one another. Progressive social change thus requires not simply liberating specific groups, but challenging the foundations of oppression itself. For if we fail to pick out the common threads that are woven through all violent ideologies, we will be doomed to create atrocities in new forms, to merely trade one form of oppression for another. To create a truly humane and just society, then, we must include carnism in our analysis.

Including carnism in progressive analyses requires a paradigm shift: we must recognize the systemic nature of eating animals. We must appreciate that, just as feminists who challenge patriarchy, for instance, are not simply “imposing their personal views” on society, those who challenge carnism are not simply “imposing their personal choices” on others. Eating animals cannot be reduced to simply a matter of personal ethics any more than can the refusal to allow people of color to enter one’s privately owned establishment.

Justice begets Justice: Toward an Inclusive Social Analysis

The flip side of MLK’s aforementioned quote is that justice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere. The oppressive-powers-that-be depend on a divide-and-conquer mentality that pits oppressed groups against one another, as though oppressions were rungs on a hierarchical ladder rather than spokes on a wheel. And while it is impossible for anyone to take on all causes, we can and should value any cause which seeks to create a more just and compassionate society. As ethicist Peter Singer muses, “I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that [people working for human welfare] are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the…exploitation of farm[ed] animals.”

Progressive social change is not merely about changing policies, but about changing hearts and minds. Genuine and lasting change requires a paradigm shift, a transformation of the mentality that propped up the old order. We must knock out the foundations of oppression and cultivate the values that form the foundation of justice, values such as compassion, integrity, and reciprocity. And to challenge injustice everywhere, we must practice justice everywhere: on streets, in the courtroom—and on our plates.

Image Source: Jo-Anne McArthur/We Animals


Disclosure: One Green Planet accepts advertising, sponsorship, affiliate links and other forms of compensation, which may or may not influence the advertising content, topics or articles written on this site. Click here for more information.

Facebook comments:

64 Responses to “Carnism: Why Eating Animals Is a Social Justice Issue”

  1. avatar Maiya says:

    This is a great, well written article with valid points. However, as an animal lover, seafood eater, and occasional meat eater, who has tried every alternative diet there is; for moral AND health reasons, I have concluded that THEY would eat me if THEY were starving. I don’t think a pig would have any qualms about it, and have been known to be cannibalistic. Sea creatures also eat each other, some times eating another alive. I have to feed my cats. Cats don’t eat vegetables and weren’t meant to. This is how I have rationalized my current diet status, sure, but I have tried others, been to a nutritionist, and continue to try and maintain an awareness of inhumane farming processes, inform others, etc. Which is better than nothing, or ignoring.
    For me personally a vegetarian, vegan, fruitarian, or macrobiotic diet were actually a danger to my health, mental state, were hard maintenance, and inhibited me from being a functional member of society e.g. able to drive, or do my job, for lack of nutrients. I am still torn by the morality of eating anything with feet, but, again after much experimenting, feel every body (human or animal) intuitively or instinctively craves what it truly needs for its’ own best health. Those true cravings being separate from an “I’m hungry” feeling while driving by McDonalds. My body has told me repeatedly that I need fish oils for example. Unless you have starved, fasted, or gone out of your way to try other diets despite upbringing, cultural, or societal brain washing, you most likely are deaf to your body telling you what it actually really needs.
    My belief in reincarnation also helps me sleep at night with a full belly.
    Thank you.

    • keep that belief in reincarnation alive and well. and remember how your selfishness one out over compassion when you come back as a pig, being forced to live your entire life in a crate giving birth…until you are dragged off, and hung up by your hoof, and slashed in the throat till you bleed out slowly. the validation you need by discussing how you tried giving up carcasses but your tastebuds and lack of creativity one out only make you look more like a murderer…knowing what you are inflicting on others.
      who cares about reincarnation, when you can stop contributing to horrible suffering of other earthlings now? it’s time to step up to the plate and be a decent human, and not be a murderer.

    • you should also do some real research about omega oils. flax seed is amazing. you don’t need to USE non human animals for what you think are your needs. there are always ways around everything. don’t blame a plant based diet for your lack of creativity. if you sit around eating pasta all the time…you are going to be deficient. there is such a font of information online, and if you truly cared about not harming other animals, then you would find a way. excuses only get us so far.

    • avatar Candice says:

      Are you starving?

      • I have lived 27 years without eating animals. I am also an advanced registered nurse practitioner. I know a lot about this subject. I also had to study ethics as well as nutrition. Did you all of a sudden become a nutrition expert when you saw the words “meat” and “bad” at the same time?

  2. avatar Laura says:

    Go vegan, no more excuses to save their life!

  3. I hope seminary professors of ethics, morals, evangelism and basic theology will teach Biblical truths concerning our relationship, greediness, diets, and manner of choices concerning animals and God.

    • Our moral/faith choices also need to be taught in churches. It’s grossly neglected allowing the evil of animal abuse to grow in the world which is in the power of the Evil One.

  4. avatar Rick says:

    Dear Dr. Joy,

    This is a beautifully written piece, and as a 29 day vegan, just what I needed to read. My wife has been a vegan a little over a year and patient with me; I slowly weaned off meat, then chicken, then fish; and now all veggies and fruits; about 80% raw and almost 100% organic.

    There are a few elements that (on which I don’t disagree, but I think you’ve left out). That is, Our Own Evolution and knowledge. Pieces like this help a lot, but I have noticed in some cases, they can hinder. People will change the subject when I bring it up.

    Finally I realized why. Evolution. My own evolution (regarding veganism) was slower than my wife Lee. Others are slower than me.

    Lets go back to early colonial days of America. The major trade was fur. My ancestors were big fur traders from Spain and Portugal outside of NYC on the Hudson. The Native Americans taught them the trade. It was a matter of survival at the time. Wool was available, but not everywhere. Of course there was no Internet, no tv, no LL Bean catalogues to order the best wool jackets. So they traded fur with the Europeans for weapons, as, rumor had it there would soon be a Revolutionary War. They needed weapons (I’m happy to say my ancestors did not slaughter or remove the Native Americans from their land. The home is on 6500 acres and now a museum. Much of the Revolutionary War was planned and financed there (with fur).

    Ironically, I have lost friends, good friends, and even have had family members abandon me due to my anti-fur stance. However, I understand fully, the lack of evolution of people in the late 1600s and early 1700s. Most living was basic survival. There was no central heat or furnaces. They discovered fur and, as cruel as that was, it was all they knew. Fur for the most part was what tipped the tides and helped us defeat England to gain our Independence.

    I do think that if they’d had the information, regarding carnism, they would have found another way to finance the war, that sadly, had to be fought, I imagine. I am not sure it could have been negotiated through diplomacy. I could be wrong. I am anti-war. I agree with you that violence against humans or animals is dismal. Can you think of how we could have gotten our independence in another way?

    Don’t you think most people would “evolve” in time in their own time, and there really is no “force feeding” but “spoon feeding” gets them more curious? That is how it happened to me. My wife very rarely nagged. She would just show me links and articles and in time I read. If she brought it up, like human nature is, I went on to other things, and ate my meat gladly. I finally learned in my own time; actually by watching her get more energetic, happier and more healthier.

    Thanks for your article. I’m not in disagreement with it by any means, and it is well-researched and beautifully expressed.

    I only feel it is fair that there was more left out of the carnism theory; elements like ignorance, lack of human evolution, etc etc.

    Thanks sincerely,

    Rick

  5. avatar Bea Elliott says:

    James – If “morality” was the yardstick as to what defined “force” or not… Then every single religion is guilty of strong-arming it’s members into “belief”. Individuals decide for themselves based on reason and their own personal ethics as to whether or not killing/meat eating is a moral issue.

    No one can assume a “guilt” they have not earned. The “guilt” lies within the person’t own convictions – You can’t extort it if it doesn’t exist.

    • avatar James says:

      Bea,
      I can’t help you understand any better my position… but I’ll try. YOU may not be doing this, but certainly others here and the Melanie IS in fact attempting to force their beliefs on us in a passive agressive manner. The mere fact you guys are demonizing and making this wrong with some moral judgement is simple trying to force someone your way. You can’t get around that. If you don’t understand that, I don’t know what to tell you.

      Let me try this again… I believe in math. Chaos, Infinity. Science. That sort of thing. I believe a tree is just a tree… Like I believe a pig is just a pig. I don’t adhere to some make believe, gray bearded wizard up in the sky that is judging us or our actions. WE are part of evolution. Animals have been eating each other for millions and millions of years. We are part of that, like or not.

      I don’t believe murder or killing is bad or good. It just is. There is no morality to that at all. Now WE humans have created stories around it to have the “illusion” of that. Now do I want a world of total anarchy? No. I wish for people to get along and I hope people can do things responsible. I am an atheist and I don’t believe in YOUR moral judgements. And quite frankly, I’m getting sick and tired of you guys getting all Nazi on us that have our own beliefs. I don’t attack you for NOT eating meat, please leave us alone who do!

      • avatar Bea Elliott says:

        Hi again James… Perhaps we can come to an agreement that there is no attempt to “force” anyone in arguing for beliefs… Persuade might be a better phrase to use. And I don’t see any problem with someone trying to persuade someone to think in a more compassionate way.

        I don’t believe in gray bearded wizards either – Or ancient mandates that prescribe what we should do today… I think man does however have an obligation to himself and to his species to evolve. If we are to fulfill our potential in becoming a civilized presence on this planet – It will require the elimination of bloodshed.

        You say you don’t believe killing or murder is bad (or good). May I ask if you feel the same way about theft? If so, killing IS stealing. It’s taking a life that you don’t possess. Life indeed is THE only thing each of us truly owns. To needlessly rob the one and only thing of value that belongs to someone else has got to have moral implications.

        Finally, on getting all “Nazi” like in beliefs… Could there be any more controlling, manipulating or “authoritative” than someone who takes the life of another who is “lesser” and unable to defend themselves? If there were no victims – No one would mind a bit to “leave you alone”. But there are – And these (harmful) acts will not be resolved without criticism or judgment. If you were the one in need of help – I’m absolutely certain you’d want it this way…

        • avatar James says:

          Bea, I concede your thought of “persuading” and not “forcing”. Words are important and maybe “force” is a little over the top. I would go with your helpless animal thought train had I not watched a wilder beast get dragged into the water last night on the Discovery channel. Or the baby seal being thrown into the air by great whites playing with the meal before devouring it.

          You see, this goes straight to my argument and distinction with your beliefs and theories. I believe that just because we have developed a conscience does not some how change the way nature works. For me… us killing and eating other animals is only the way nature works. There is nothing “unnatural” about it. You say stealing another life…. does a tiger steal another life?

          I appreciate your thoughtful responses and articulate way we have interacted, but we are just too far off from coming together on this. The only thing I am willing to do at this point is buy from cage free, farm raised, grass fed animals. I think that is responsible and reasonable for today.

          • avatar Guest says:

            Wild animals only want to survive. That’s natural. For an evolved human it is not necessary to kill other beings.
            Knowing makes the difference.

      • avatar Hegetarian says:

        //I don’t believe murder or killing is bad or good.//

        Then, if you’ll excuse me, I’d like to be as far away from you as possible.

  6. avatar elizabeth says:

    My feelings about why anyone would eat a living, breathing creature comes from the generations before us, and the generation before them. I think that for some reason people have just listened to others about how eating flesh is good and tastes good too! So instead of looking for right and wrong themselves they just continue with what was told to them many moons ago.

    We were given a brain so we should be asking, why don’t we use our intelligence and find out why some people eat flesh. It isn’t because we can’t live without it, I mean man wasn’t eating flesh when he was created, it was just after he was thrown out of the Garden of Eden that he decided to do things his own way. So as the years go by we eat more and more different creatures without any feelings for their suffering. If man could eat flesh he would be the one who was suffering and that just ain’t going to happen. Man for some reason has told himself that he is special?? What a joke.

    The one thing I have learned while on this earth is that God’s creatures are the true human if there is such a thing. When you think of ‘human’ you think of something that has feelings, morals and would go out of their way to ensure that others were not harmed for our good. So there is no way that we can call ourselves human. But the animals are just that, and keep in mind it is man who decided to call these creatures, ‘animals.’

    As for the person who thinks plants have feeling, they don’t have blood! They don’t bleed, God’s creatures do and the same as man. And when I hear most people talk about how plants feel, it is because this is the only excuse they can come up with to make it seem that if you eat plants and they suffer, you can then eat something that bleeds blood too!

    • avatar Laura says:

      Exactly, I do agree, I don´t believe in god but if there is one, he surely would not want innocent creatures be tortured every single day just for the man´s selfishness. The rest(such as the: plants have feeling too) are all the stupid thing I(vegan)have to listen every day. Do you know why?, they are afraid to know the true, and that is a natural defensive atittude, it´s alright, but if they really cared about animals, they would do a good research and find that true is only one: if you pay for animal products, you are part of their suffering.

  7. avatar Montana Gal says:

    First, a response to plants have feelings. Drop the stupidity! That’s just a ridiculous argument to continue to eat animals! Anyways, many more plants have to be grown and die to feed animals and then humans eat the animals. So, fewer plants would need to be “sacrificed” if we all ate a healthy, plant-based diet, everywhere on this planet and in westernized countries.
    Humane meat: that is bullsh**. I live in Montana, a rural state, surrounded by family farmers and what the folks with blinders on to justify eating animals call “happy” meat. Its not happiness you would want, for yourself, these victim animals have cruel things done to them, same as factory animals and their death is as premature, violent and egregous as factory animals.
    Do check out: http://www.humanemyth.org.
    Dairy cows still have babies, torn away from them within one day maybe if lucky after a “first feeding” from mother cow to get colostrum, farmers figure better than dealing with illness is the sole reason, then with in 24 hours yanked away, then off females and males go, pulled away from their grieving mothers. Would you do that to a puppy or kitten? Is that happiness?
    Listen to your heart, think folks, think and take the blinders off. For the animals sake!

  8. avatar Jo says:

    James:

    You said, “The only thing I try to do is buy grass feed/ farm raised meats so I know the animals haven’t been tortured.”

    Is it not torture to permanently separate a mother from her nursing baby? I would find it torturous if someone took my children from me!

    How about removing a male’s testicals without any anesthetic…would you consider that torture? That is a common practice that the grass-fed cow’s you eat have endured.

    What about being packed so tightly into a truck (on the way to slaughter) that you can’t turn around and itch yourself, and transported in extremes of weather in open air, and without water — sometimes for days at a time like this. Would you consider that torture?

    True grass fed beef cows don’t endure as quite as much torture as feedlot cows…just how much torture are comfortable with?

  9. According to Joy:

    “Speciesism is the ideology in which it’s considered appropriate to value some animals over others (with humans at the top of the hierarchy), while carnism is the ideology in which it’s considered appropriate to eat some of the non-human species on the lower rungs of the speciesist hierarchy. Carnism is a “subideology” of speciesism, just as anti-Semitism, for example, is a subideology of racism; it’s a specific expression of a broader ideology. Speciesism is the ethos, or cultural backdrop, that makes carnism possible.” ( a quote from an interview that Joy sent me)

    This description of carnism indicates that it is a rather trivial and, indeed, underinclusive concept. That is, carnism is no more than the notion that speciesism allows us to justify (in some ideological way) a particular speciesist behavior-eating animals. But given that speciesism justifies all sorts of animal exploitation, I am not sure how carnism is doing anything but moving us away from the moral truth and not closer to it. Joy’s analogy involving racism and anti-semitism is not on point. Instead, Joy’s use of carnism is similar to saying that anti-semitism is the ideology that semites are not members of the moral community and “Holocaustism” is the ideology that purports to justify a particular killing of Jews. Do we need Holocaustism to explain the Holocaust? I think not; anti-semitism works pretty well. Similarly, I think speciesism is a perfect word to explain a wide range of speciesist behaviors, including eating meat and other animal products, or using animals for any other purpose. Carnism adds nothing and, indeed, detracts from the more general ideological problem that purports to justify all animal exploitation. It is specisism, and not carnism, that provides the structural framework for oppression. Once we move away from that, we start making artificial and counterproductive distinctions between and among animal uses.

    To the extent that Joy focuses on meat, we should remember that there is as much suffering and death in a glass of milk than in a flesh product. Vegetarianism is an incoherent position from a moral point of view. If we are really concerned about the oppression of nonhuman animals, veganism is the only rational response. Indeed, vegetarianism, like “locovorism,”or the “happy” exploitation movement, is nothing but conservatism masquerading as progressive thought, which Joy says she rejects.

    Joy also seems to propose carnism as more a cognitive concept that explains the psychological invisibility of animals that makes exploitation possible. I am not sure what she means here. We exploit animals not because animals and the moral issues concerning exploitation are invisible. On the contrary; our speciesism is very apparent. The cultural basis for exploiting animals is the notion that animals do not have an interest in their lives so our use of them does not per se involve a moral harm. We do not question the *use* of animals in that we do not think that the use is itself problematic; we focus instead on issues of *treatment*. But this is no secret. There is no invisibility here. This speciesist mindset is the basis of the animal welfare ethic that explicitly constitutes the conventional wisdom of our culture on matters of animal ethics. Even the large animal groups, which, ironically, Joy promotes in her work, have accepted versions of the welfarist ideology.

    To the extent that Joy is focusing on the disconnect we make between animals we love and those we exploit, and our delusional thinking about nonhuman animals, I quite agree that is an interesting psychological phenomenon that can inform our moral thinking. Indeed, over a decade ago, I wrote about our moral schizophrenia when it came to animals. But I am not sure what additional light “carnism” sheds here if this is all that Joy means.

    Gary L. Francione
    Professor, Rutgers University

    • avatar Rylee says:

      Gary, So is your whole point focused on how speciesism (and not carnism) is the basis for why eating animals is a social justice issue? How is that helping anyone but yourself?

      The bottom line is people who eat animals can relate to carnism, and the last time I checked, even vegans can’t relate to you. It’s not because you don’t make some good points, but because you seem more focused on attacking others rather than promoting “creative, non-violent, vegan education.”

      As you have said before, “My bottom-line view is that we’ve got limited time and limited resources. We can campaign for abolition or we can campaign for welfare. It’s a zero-sum game. Every cent that we spend, every second of time that we spend campaigning for welfare is less money and less time that we are spending on abolition.”

      I would argue that every second and cent you spend promoting yourself is time that can be spent helping animals by promoting something that the mainstream can relate and respond to.

      Wake up Gary; this is not about you, your theories and your books; this is about helping people realize the injustice that we’re inflicting on animals and changing their hearts and minds.

      • Dear Rylee:

        The notion that we should soft peddle the problem of speciesism and pretend that there is a coherent distinction between meat and other animal foods or products, is, I believe a serious impediment to social progress and clear thinking in the area of animal ethics.

        But it is clear that you are not interested in any substantive discussion. Bye.

        Gary L. Francione
        Professor, Rutgers University

        • avatar Rylee says:

          Thanks for taking the time to respond Professor Francione.

          I think it’s pretty clear that Dr. Melanie Joy is advocating veganism and not vegetarianism or meatless monday or anything else. Isn’t that the whole point of her argument about carnism? Isn’t it all about this invisible ideology that conditions us to eat some animals or use their by products and not those of others? Maybe she doesn’t yell “go vegan” in every second sentence, but I think her views on this are pretty clear to anyone who has followed her work.

          Or maybe because I don’t have a Phd I have totally misunderstood all of this and Melanie Joy is telling people to support “welfarism” or “humane” meat or “vegetarianism.” I just don’t get why a vegan (whether a self-proclaimed abolitionist or not) or animal lover in general would deliver nothing but praise in response to this great article.

          Bye,

          Rylee

      • avatar Strig says:

        I second Rylee’s comments. If I have to see one more dude using mytholigical things he sees in womens writings to promote his blog under the guise of animal lib, imma lose it. Step off the floor for a second and reread what this woman wrote Gary. Then google mansplaining.

    • avatar mike says:

      Hi Gary- As a vegan for 10+ years I used to be one of those fuzzy animal welfare vegans. Voters have passed everal various animal welfare laws recently, but as soon as these laws are passed the exploiters go to work lobbying to weaken or overturn these laws behind the scenes. I have seen this over & over & over. Larger chicken cages, downers, farrowing crates, the number of breeding dogs allowed in puppy mills; the list goes on & on. The various animal welfare groups don’t seem to grasp that the ONLY solution is to reduce the demand for these ‘products’. I want to thank you Mr Francione, for opening my eyes through your writings. Abolitionism is the only thing that will help other animals.

      • Dear Mike:

        Thanks for writing. I am very glad that my writing has helped you to clarify your own thinking. That is what education is all about!

        Be well.

        Gary L. Francione
        Professor, Rutgers University

  10. avatar jenmcarthur says:

    This is an amazing article Melanie!

  11. avatar Corey Wrenn says:

    Why single out meat? We need to address speciesism as a whole.

  12. avatar Amy says:

    Very good article. My kids have been vegan for 11 years. I am a newbie this year, although I ate and cooked their plant based items for years. I still ate some meat and cheese as well. Once you go whole foods you never go back. All of my medical tests are better. I have lost over 20 lbs. And I love animals! Don’t know why it took me so long to get here. I urge people to educate themselves on this issue. We are what we eat, literally! I will be on the lookout for books and articles from Dr. Joy and thank you for sharing with us here online.

  13. avatar Barb says:

    I just want to point out that I think most children don’t want to eat meat when they find out it’s dead animals. They don’t need to be asked to reflect on it. Anyway, that’s was my response but my parents had the authority to decide what I ate so I had no impact on dietary choices as I’m sure most children do not.

  14. avatar James says:

    I can only speak for my self and my own experiences here. I have no “moral” judgements on eating meat or not. I can tell you why I don’t eat dog and do eat pig… cause Pig taste good, and Dogs do not. Many, many species eat others species. I think it’s a weak argument that because Humans have a “conscious”… that we are supposed to not eat meat or that there should be some moral judgement on this.

    I believe many vegetarians have created a story in their head based on feelings. Living in a emotional state of ideology. We are Humans. Organisms that have been evolving for millions of years just like other animals and organisms. Why people feel the need to judge this or make it some kind of “moral” social justice is beyond my comprehension. The only thing I try to do is buy grass feed/ farm raised meats so I know the animals haven’t been tortured. I don’t eat Veal for that very reason.

    Bottom line for me, trying to insert, “Justice” or “Morals” into the argument is just ridiculous IMO. It has nothing to do with that. Those are only stories we Humans make up to further our ideologies and force people to believe what we believe.

    • avatar Anonymous says:

      u r an ass

    • avatar Anonymous says:

      If you drink milk, or buy any products with milk in them, you support veal.

    • avatar Chris says:

      James, I think your train of logic is fascinating. What about the fact that humans have CONSCIENCES, the product of which is moral cognition, does not justify a moral obligation to base our behaviors off of those cognitions? I know you can’t be saying that we shouldn’t utilize morally-leaning intellect, since a moral perspective is what you’re acting from when you decide to buy the bodies grass-fed animals because you don’t want to participate in practices you consider “torture” (not that being de-beaked, having your child taken from you minutes after birth, or your tail cut off could be described by anyone with any vestige of a frontal lobe as anything BUT torture), because that’d be completely illogical.

      So what exactly are you saying? That doing anything but the bare minimum to prevent suffering is emotional, as opposed to following the train of your own logic only as far as the first stop, which is humane meat? That abstaining from products created through death is idealistic or OVERLY moral? Are you telling me that when I refuse to participate in unnecessary suffering because causing unnecessary suffering and death are the two things I’m absolutely certain are morally wrong that I’m being TOO moral or TOO emotional, when I wasn’t aware that egregious morality or compassion existed? That’s truly fascinating, I can’t wait to read your response.

      • avatar James says:

        Chris, I do that for no “moral” thought processes, but because grass fed, farm animals are more healthy for me and my system. I also believe that torture is wrong on anything… but that has no morals attached to it. Yes we are the only species that have developed a conscience, but along with that comes the story telling we make up. I ask you to consider that there is no good and evil, moralities, or “social justice”… those are all but made up stories we Humans have created in our heads.

        So why wouldn’t I eat what taste good? Why wouldn’t I eat what is good protein for my body? I believed in math. Chaos, Infinity. That sort of thing. Not good, bad, evil, morality and made up stories. I think it’s nice that you have your way of life and choose to eat what you do… but it’s HIGHLY annoying and time for you all to stand down and stop trying to bring, “social justice” or “moralities” into this to further, YOUR BELIEFS.

        Trying to equate violence and rape to eating animals is the most asinine thing I’ve ever heard! haha!!! We have this thing called evolution. Maybe some of you could read up on that? You are trying to stop something that is perfectly natural. Thanks for the thoughtful response Chris. I hope this helps you understand the other side of the coin.

        James

        • avatar pam says:

          you know, james your plea for us all to stand down and to stop trying to bring social justice or moralities into this is pitiful. if every one thought like you, the nazi’s would have been victorious, women would neverhave gotten rights and we would still have slaves. here is a quote for you-we can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. immanuel kant. if you would even know who he was i would be suprised

          • avatar Anonymous says:

            Pam, the response to bring Nazis, woman’s rights and Slavery only speaks volumes of how ignorant you are and desperate to bring Morality into this. Your passive aggressive ways will do your cause no good whatsoever.

            You live in a world of emotional fantasy. I have justified nothing here. I don’t need to “justify” anything. I don’t expect you do understand that or comprehend that as you are blindly enthralled in your ridiculous ideology. You guys sound like the far right religious nut jobs who have taken over the republican party. Wanting to bring YOUR moralities forced upon us all. If anyone is behaving like a Nazi, that would be YOU Pam.

            Go read some books on evolution and get back to me.

      • avatar pam says:

        i’m glad ur giving james here a spelling lesson, too. great response to him, chris. people try to justify their carnism in any way that is convenient for them. i find it interesting that he says that pig tastes good and dogs dont. is that from personal experience, james?

      • avatar James says:

        For someone who “couldn’t wait” to read my response, you sure seem quiet. I know… you’re still just so fascinated in my logic that you’re trying to collect your thoughts. LMAO!

        I think the main thing you guys will never get around is evolution. We have been evolving for millions of years. If you can explain to me how it’s different from a tiger eating a wilder beast… or a great white eating a baby seal… or anything other animal here on planet earth eating another animal to a Human doing the same… and do it in a coherent fashion, I’d be willing to listen.

        Instead of creating new words to label people and demonize others for something they do, you should be trying to explain this theory. Instead of trying to attach, “morals” and “guilt” to your cause, you would be much more effective explaining the science behind it. I believe eating meat responsibly is important… that’s why I said I like to buy farm raised/grass fed. You want to suggest that means I have morals attached to this. Nonsense. It only means I am trying to be healthy… and yes not have something suffer. That has nothing to do with morals though.

        • avatar Nanieke says:

          I totally agree with you when it comes to evolution. I think eating meat is natural, since every living thing is part of the food chain. But the fact that some people don’t WANT to eat meat because they feel sorry for the animals, makes us humans a little different from other species. Lions never care when their preys suffocate. Males would even kill little lion cubs and chimps would gang up on intruders with the intention to kill. They kill their own kind. But we decided that killing people is not ok and murders should be put behind bars.

          Humans are complicated, and I think it’s wrong to just label that complexity as ‘emotional nonsense’. We make up stories, but they actually become our reality because we can never be fully objective when looking at the world.

          And by the way, I don’t eat meat because I, very emotionally, hate the idea that something else had to suffer and die to be my food. And I do wonder why I feel so much empathy for other animals, why I’m easily heartbroken for days when I’ve seen one suffer. Evolutionary, it doesn’t make sense to me, other than a misplaced feeling of responsibility for anything that’s innocent and vulnerable like a child.

          We should all just respect each others feelings and beliefs. I don’t object to others eating meat, that’s for everyone else to decide.

        • avatar Strig says:

          Both Darwin and Kropotkin are both rolling over in their graves right now with your words, James. And they didn’t even get along with each other.

    • avatar natestanford says:

      Morals have nothing to do with this?? Seems that you are going for the “Natural” defense of carnism. like Dr. Joy points out…this is common among all violent ideologies….men have been raping women for thousands of years…no morality needed to assess that issue according to your especially poor argument….purely emotional to care about the lives of suffering farm animals you say? In the spirit of Dr Joy’s book…would you reduce it to a mere emotional, non moral issue if we were to torture and and slaughter millions of dogs? It is genuinely ironic to me that you care enough to alter your eating habits in part for the animals, but you have not a care in the world because it is “not a moral issue” you say. Honestly, I find the expression of your sentiments particularly annoying. Please read Dr. Joy’s book.

    • avatar Bea Elliott says:

      Hi James… No one is “forcing” you to believe anything. But rather I think there is a plea to encourage people to live up to the values they already have. You have them as well – Or you would not be concerned with the “welfare” of the animals you choose to consume.

      Now, if you could only take that concern a step further and realize that no being wishes to be harmed. Not a human, cow or pig… To do so requires us to use force and that can’t be a good thing in a civilization that wants to evolve ethically.

      Beyond the notion that pigs might taste good, but dogs might not… You don’t eat dogs because you were culturally indoctrinated to see that as repulsive. There is no objective reasoning that establishes why some animals are meant for “food” and others for pets. It’s all based on archaic indoctrination and habit. Surly we don’t want are values of today to be anchored in narrow choices and views of yesterday?

      You obviously already care about your ethical choices… I suggest you just need to think a bit further to see that stealing anyone’s life – unless under dire life/death circumstances – Isn’t justifiable. But I think you might already know this… And that’s why you’ve offered all the excuses that you have. And because humans do have a conscious – it is a very powerful reason to listen to it – Else what is the purpose of possessing one at all?

      • avatar James says:

        Bea, you go straight to my point. There is no “justice”… “bad or good” in this decision. I will agree with you that we are indoctrinated at an early age. Which is why Asians who eat dog freak us out. You say, no one is forcing us to believe, but I suggest you are by the simple fact of bringing “morality” into this. Trying to guilt people is a passive aggressive way to force people to your ideology. That is wrong IMO.

    • avatar Monika says:

      I read this article because I am trying to educate myself about my choice of leaning towards vegan diet. It is really only pure quriosity on my side that wants to know why did you read it?

    • avatar Anonymous says:

      James,

      I wonder how you define “morality.” To me, morality is what informs one’s actions. It’s necessary for any animal to have some sort of morality because we all have to act to survive. You seem to be getting at “values,” thinking about which actions are good or bad and why. Or rather, why you value (or esteem) certain things in the world.

      I must agree with your relativity there. I can’t really say that my own decision to not eat meat is an imperative for all humans everywhere. However, we live in a milieu where it’s just way too easy to not eat meat (whether it be factory OR grass-fed). Meat is not an ideal source of protein. You can get that nutrient from plants without the excess cholesterol and fat. Iron is readily available from plant sources, and we have easy access to B12 supplements.

      Knowing all this, the choice to eat meat becomes horribly precarious. It’s unneccesary, and we really don’t know what the conditions are like for the animals (on the level of their experience). Isn’t it more sensical to err on the side of caution, especially when it’s better for your health anyways?

      As for your take on evolution and how that factors in, I think it ties back to values. If you read into “value theory” philosophy, you will get a cool perspective on how we interact with the world. To value is to esteem. When an object (in this case, a non-human animal) is esteemed, it’s value has been apprehended. It’s quite a strange mental ability involved. It’s similar to the idea of “alikeness.” Alikeness is not perceived, but rather it is apprehended. A single object cannot possess the quality of “alikeness.” It is an intellectual process we have which recognizes that quality.

      I wonder if this is a uniquely human trait…a result of our evolution and therefore an inherent ability we have and should make use of. It’s not about coming to a universal truth on what to value and why, but we owe it to our own existence to always be trying to refine our values, to be open to the reasons why certain objects receive our esteem.

      We both value animals, but in different ways. I value animals as beings, as beings similar to me in ways that many seem to like to deny. You value them as a protein source. For that reason, I think you fail to apprehend something about non-human animals which makes it immoral to kill them for food (in our time and place).

      • avatar James says:

        Anonymous, Thanks for the thoughtful response. As an agnostic I should qualify what morality means to me. Good point. Morality to me is nothing more than a set of values that WE as a society have set down for us all to adhere to. In short, they are a story that we have all made up and agreed to abide by. Some more than others. LOL

        That said… It’s probably over the top when I say there is no good or bad. Of course there is bad things that happen, but I believe in our universe things just are. Do I want my girlfriend to be killed, NO. I would feel bad. I like her with me. But if I look at the essence of our universe and world without making up any stories about it… all that happen is my girlfriend died at the hands of another person. Thats ALL THAT HAPPEN.

        All other stuff said about it are only made up stories that we humans have been doing since the conscious moment we had with our brains. I don’t believe in evil V good. I think just like a plant grows because of the sun and water… a tiger kills her cub for food… humans kill a cow for food… that, that’s IT. No stories. It is “IS”. I know it’s hard to grasp.

        Probably as hard as it is to explain. But since the past couple of years of becoming agnostic I have freed my mind. I feel more free than ever in my life. No more stories. Science…. Nature…. that is where it’s at. I am on the Paleo diet, nick named the caveman diet and am more fit than ever today. I eat nothing but fruits and nuts and meat and vegetables. No starch, no grains, no corn, no rice. Back to what we did thousands of years ago. I’ve lost 22 lbs and 2 pant sizes! I feel great.

        People have to do what works for them in life. This is what works for me. I only ask that people quit demonizing us like this Melanie is doing and others here. You are attempting to do what we have done to smokers. It’s a passive aggressive thing. I don’t like it. Let people be! Nature ALWAYS takes care of itself. I’m not worried. Thanks again for your response.
        James

    • avatar Strig says:

      This is so oddly hypocritical I don’t even know how to read it. You’re saying don’t do morals because of biological determinism, then you are saying you only buy grassfed beef (dead cows), then you go back to the no morals argument. This is a very shallow way of looking at things and methinks it very much comes from YOUR emotions and you not wanting to FEEL bad about eating animals.

      The idea that there is something wrong with emotions and emotional responses is a tenet of patriarchy and various oppressions. Emotions are beautiful. We all have them. Some of us choose to bury them so we can have an easier time eating animals. Some of us choose to embrace them so that we may seek a better life for ourselves and other animals.

      • avatar James says:

        Strig,
        It’s only confusing to you as you have a hard time comprehending something from a scientific view. I find it quite laughable that you accuse me of being emotional when it is clear that this is where you come from with decisions you make in life, like eating.

        There is no hypocritical thinking here once you understand. I’ve grown weary of trying to explain to you all. If feel no shame or emotions with the choice I make in life to eat meat. I do believe that any living thing should not be tortured and that I should make the most healthy choice possible with regards to my meat, which is why I made the above statement.

        I don’t want steroids and other chemicals in my meat. That is why I choose farm raised and grass fed meat. Emotions can be a beautiful thing, but NOT something we make life choices with. 9 times at of 10 you will get burned when making decisions based off of emotions in life.

        Again you attempt to degrade me and others by saying, “Some of us choose to embrace them so that we may seek a better life for ourselves and other animals”. That is a silly, passive aggressive way to make yourself better than. Until you guys find a more positive way to attract people to your movement, you will get ZERO traction. Your condescending tone in that last statement will get you no where, but make yourself feel better about yourself at the expense of others. Rather pathetic.

        • avatar Strig says:

          James, I graduated with high honors with a bachelors in science and worked in the field of psychological and cognitive neuroscience research for 5 years. I was in line for grad school but decided to change fields because I realized that science fields have become mostly bureaucracy and very little methodology. I am fully capable of looking at things from a “scientific perspective” (is that what you’re supposed to be doing here)?

          I find that the only people who talk about science the way you do (very shallow, uneducated about it, relying on a few basic tenets and ignoring all other theories, etc) are people who have little to no experience with it. If you do in fact work in the field, you are probably one of the types of reasons I left. You say you are on the paleo diet, is that where you learned about “science”? The paleo diet is one of many diets humans can thrive on as humans are capable of eating anything, much like many other animals. Hell we can survive many years eating only ramen noodles as well. I feel much better on a vegan diet rife with whole foods myself. Rotting flesh just never settles as well in the human body for most people.

          I am not being passive aggressive. I was being directly aggressive. Just like you. Well, you’re passive aggressive, too. And projecting. But I won’t get all scientific because you seem to be having a difficult time understanding it and I care about your feelings so much (<– now that was passive aggressive, see the difference?)

          Anyways, your remarks about evolution and science as an excuse for the abuse of animals and lack of any emotionality or morality having any purpose or meaning shows how ignorant you are of evolution. Emotionality and morality have played huge roles in not only our species evolution, but many others as well.

          Read some Kropotkin. Species that work together in mutual aid based frameworks and find ways to live in harmony with each other and their environments are those who survive. Mutual aid not mutual struggle. OMG SCIENCE.

          • avatar James says:

            Your comprehension skills are that of a 9 year old. I can’t make it any clearer. You choose ignorance over understanding … and that will only further destroy any chances of swaying people to your movement.
            I don’t suffer fools long.

            Thanks for sharing.

          • avatar Strig says:

            It’s awesome to resort to simple insults when you can’t argue against anything the previous person just said.

            Thanks for sharing (<— passive aggressive again! They say that mimicry is the highest form of flattery though and I don't want you to get confused.)

          • avatar James says:

            What’s to respond to??? You respond with your fat bloated ego about how great a scientist you are, then go on to tell me how uneducated I am and you expected what???

            You are a moron. You bring nothing but your ego in here and insults to a differing opinion. And then have the gall to try and call ME out for projecting. Yeah. Ok dude.

            You’re such a smart guy. Lets all stand and applaud you.

          • avatar Strig says:

            I’m not a guy. I brought up points about evolution, emotions, morals, and other things you’ve been trying to mansplain about for your 50 posts telling everyone how they can’t comprehend science. Then you find out you’re talking to a scientist or two and….WHOOPS. Emotion and evolution and diet are all related. I’ll go now I guess. Um… bye.

Leave a Reply

Browse more articles


Advertisement

Submit to Us

Trending Posts

Advertisement

Popular Posts

Advertisement
Advertisement

Posts by our
Green Monsters






  • Subscribe to
    OneGreenPlanet


    Comments from our
    Green Monsters

    Submit to OneGreenPlanet


    Terms & Conditions ×